Vanilla: Shall we try that again?

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Keldt, Aug 1, 2014.

  1. Keldt

    Keldt Member

    The last server had a whitelist, which (I'm assuming here) was part of why it wasn't integrated in with the other servers nearly as much.

    I dunno if we planned to keep that whitelist.. It seems like more work, but it also seems helpful, and would mean we could get away with it not being as integrated.

    I figured it would probably be okay and even smarter to wait for things to upgrade to 1.8 support, especially since the plugins chosen are not nearly as extensive as some of the plugins used in survival.

    I made another blunder with the "simple" sentence. In that sentence, I meant to emphasize that the changes suggested make the server not much different from what we'd recently had going, but we somehow managed to debate those changes over and over again through to page six, rather than actually discussing what it takes to get this going.

    I've said from the beginning that I know nothing of setting up a server. I'd love to do it all myself if I could, but I'm just your average bII from over on the creative server.

    "Easy crossover access" saves staff the time it takes to click "disconnect," "multiplayer," and then the Vanilla server option twice, and the same thing to get back. If that's some huge thing, we can wait months for bungee. I don't care if it means this will work out.

    I never see you on creative. I'm sure it's not because you hate everyone in the shadecrest creative community; you probably just don't like creative as much in general.
    I don't care that everyone who's there for those plugins think they're fun, that only proves the point I'm trying to make. Some people do not like those features. Forgive us. We're human. Please present someone who has played on survival with all the plugins off, who does not use warps, use currency, have mail, and all the rest, for a significant amount of time, and your point that there are people who choose not to use those features will make much more sense to me.

    Ezeiger brought up creeper damage, I wasn't considering disabling that until it was brought up against me.

    Aside from creeper damage and enderman griefing, the existence of your peaceful world should be proof enough that a server can survive without pvp. The fact that thievery destroyed the last vanilla server should be proof that a server can last without stealing.

    I thank you very much for the time and consideration you've already put into this.
  2. CyberVic

    CyberVic Well-Known Member VIP

    Will comment more on this when I am behind a real keyboard, but your assumptions are wrong when it comes to1.8 support and the plugins you have chosen vs those on survival.

    I am rarely on creative because I spend 75% of my time on shadcrest running things. The other 25 is spent between survival and ftb. I have zero qualms with the creative community that choses to be part of the greater shadcrest community. I do have qualms with any subset of the community who wishes to explicitly distance themselves from the rest of the community.

    Sent from my myTouch_4G_Slide using Tapatalk 2
  3. Slebert

    Slebert Active Member VIP

    I dont use mail, nor do I ever get mail, for a large portion of my time on shadecrest I never had a town. They are not nessasary just because others have them. You can play I the server and not be effected in the slightest by what others are doing with the plugins

    Sent from Sleberts phone
  4. Keldt

    Keldt Member

    What made you decide to get in a town?
    I need to figure out how to disable mail. I accumulated a ton of spam mail, myself.
    Sure, if you're really good at ignoring everyone else on the server, you can have a semidecent vanilla experience that very few people will join you in. Survival doesn't bring in the same kind of people a vanilla server would bring in. These are points that I've made before, just as yours is a point I've heard several times.

    It's not the same, nor is it close enough for it to already exist, nor will it convince me to play on the survival server with plugins disabled. I'm sure you've had people join and the quit the survival server, because they wanted a vanilla server instead (you can count me as an example, I used to play on the survival server). Why not catch those people, and bring in new more new people, with a server dedicated to vanilla?
  5. oiShocKWavesv

    oiShocKWavesv Well-Known Member VIP

    Actually, I think you are the only one. Our server info on all websites clearly states we are bukkit with plugins.
  6. Keldt

    Keldt Member

    Awesome, so they're being turned away there, normally.

    My point stands.
  7. oiShocKWavesv

    oiShocKWavesv Well-Known Member VIP

    If they want vanilla they aren't going to join our server, period. If they do, they it's their own fault for not having eyes.
  8. Keldt

    Keldt Member

    And so my point, reiterated, is that we should have a vanilla server to catch those who want survival but would prefer vanilla enough to avoid our survival-with-plugins altogether.

  9. CyberVic

    CyberVic Well-Known Member VIP

    So Keldt. The reality is to to install half of the plugins you want, it requires Bukkit which is the base modding framework that a lot of these mods rely upon. So Yes, when 1.8 comes out we will have to wait for all the plugins you WANT and finally for bukkit to finally be certified for 1.8, then and only then you will get the server you want.

    I am not sure whether I posted this before or not because my phone was being stupid, but the thing that got a lot of players on vanilla is because it was a snapshot and because it was whitelisted it was being bumped CONSTANTLY on mcforums. It's why it's dead on vanilla right now. A. no one is approving the white list and B. we stopped updating it so C. no one new has been coming to the server.

    Really I only see a couple of viable options

    True Vanilla:
    Snapshot. No mods at all. No rules (that would require tons of staff to enforce), but whitelist only a select handful of people already part of the greater ShadeCrest community that you trust not to break the rules, grief, steal, etc? Don't just whitelist everyone on the planet to get LOTS of players, but instead make the whitelisting process more involved and only accept people who are going to cooperatively build with you the way you want the community on that server to work out. This would be a low maintenance server because it would require only updating the snapshot every once and a while and/or banning people.

    Vanilla Like:
    This would be a similar maintenance to our current survival server, but in the larger scope of our server offerings would be significantly different if we amped up survival more and therefore worth the effort. Latest Bukkit with Prism, LWC (give LWC a cost but make that cost in some kind of resource like diamonds), ModReq, Chat Channels, Permissions, Worldguard, WorldEdit, other basic Admin tools for banning/tempbanning, etc, integration with our ban management, integration with our hub, Bungee integration, Creeper / Enderman griefing disabled. This world would be maintained by the Survival staff who could easily go back and forth between survival / vanilla to maintain things and have the usual tools for banning, unbanning, fixing things, etc. This would basically be like survival with McMMO, Craftbook, ChestShop, Mail, Warps, and iConomy not installed.

    If we go with the "Vanilla Like" option, I'm going to start a campaign to amp back up Survival. In other words instead of 90% of McMMO to appease people who QQ about it, those people who QQ about it will be sent to the Vanilla Like server and McMMO will have all features enabled on Survival (with the exception of maybe some of the things which unbalance PvP which will be disabled in the PvP as they are now). I would also we work to install more plugins on the survival server which would differentiate the Vanilla and the Survival server more because as it stands if we build this it will be too similar. If we want a wider market, let's truly widen our offerings.
  10. Keldt

    Keldt Member

    As for bukkit and all that, I knew there would be waiting, and did not mind that.
    What I wasn't thinking about was that bukkit is required for anything else, and probably is one of the last things to update, from the sounds of it.

    Vanilla-like thing:
    That all sounds great to me, if you're willing to do that to survival.
  11. Rem

    Rem Active Member VIP

    I have a quick question Keldt . What would this server be called and how would it be advertised? Because from what it seems what you want its "Vanilla" but its ran on bukkit, so its Bukkit Vanilla? Or simple survival? This is just a random question that popped into my head.
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2014
    Keldt likes this.
  12. Navarog

    Navarog Well-Known Member

    We could just advertize it as a vanilla thing. I doubt most people care about what multiplayer client thing we use.
  13. Keldt

    Keldt Member

    I've wondered the same thing.

    I think we should advertise it for what we'll be doing on it, once survival is a more minor concern. If that's building together as a whole server, then the initial "title" could be something to do with vanilla community building or anything shorter we can come up with.

    If we don't want to get that specific we could go with something like Bukkit Vanilla (I kinda like that one) or Protected Vanilla or something along those lines, to let people know it's vanilla at its core, but it also has some helpful plugins.

    We could always just go with "vanilla," since it's not far from the truth xP
  14. CyberVic

    CyberVic Well-Known Member VIP

    I would advertise it something like this using our current advertising methods:

    ShadeCrest Survival | McMMO | Towny | IConomy | Chestshop | LWC | MobArena | Events | MultiWorld | Dynmap | Teamspeak

    ShadeCrest Creative | Ranks | WorldEdit | VoxelSniper | Contests | MultiWorld | Dynmap | Teamspeak

    ShadeCrest Vanilla+ | Peaceful | Cooperative | No Griefing | LWC | Prism | Modreq | Dynmap | Teamspeak
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2014
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  15. CyberVic

    CyberVic Well-Known Member VIP

    Erik and I have begun setup of ShadeCrest Semi Vanilla. Personally I like the name Vanilla+ the more I think about it.

    FYI, I think the current count of plugins is 18. Most of them are admin type stuff and supporting dependencies.
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2014
  16. CyberVic

    CyberVic Well-Known Member VIP

    UPDATE: We have a lot of the plugins configured at this point. I'd say we're about a third of the way done after putting about 6 hours between the two of us getting it setup, testing, etc. Still have a lot of work to do on setting up:
    • Achivevment messages disabled?
    • Integrate with the hub server
    • Make sure it's queryable from the forums front page status
    • Ensure creeper explosions are disabled
    • Ensure Ghast explosions are disabled
    • Ensure enderman griefing is disabled
    • What about TnT, should be disabled?
    • What about Firespread, should be disabled?
    • What about spawn build permissions?
    • X blocks away from spawn allowed to build or everyone allowed to build anywhere
    • LWC, locking containers with 4 diamonds
    • LWC, locking containers with 7 vote points
    • LWC, Allow locking of hoppers, droppers, brewing stands, etc just like on the survival
    • ZPermissions
    • Worldguard
    • Ontime
    • More chat configuration
    • Multiverse finish setup so admins can travel across dimensions for modreqs
    • Dynmap
    • Get the plugins spreadsheet up to date with the full list of plugins and versions
    • Build out separate tab in the staff to-do list spreadsheet for Vanilla
    • Update player stats page to include stats from Survival / Creative / Vanilla all separately (particularly the online time, show an aggregate online time across all Minecraft servers)
    • Not related to vanilla, but make sure player stats page is reporting voting data correcly from Ndv's voting database, currently using ontimes vote count I think, might be nice to show other vote data like the current owned votepoints
    We're making sure to setup the vanilla databases the proper way with 1 database per plugin, the way I ultimately want all servers' databases setup. Also the version is 1.7.10 which means Vanilla is more up to date than Survival.

    After this is done I'm going to really have fun amping back up Survival to be what it was back in the day when I first joined (McMMO in it's full glory) obviously with the support of the community, but a quick query of the player base sounds like they support it. Also, once it's done we can get back to coding the Marketplace rental system which is on hold for the implementation of Vanilla+.

    I sincerely hope that Keldt, you are starting to get an appreciation for what it means to setup a server "with only a couple of plugins" and how this Vanilla+ server is a lot more work that just a snapshot server with no plugins installed.

    Time to go to bed. Tomorrow (or rather later today) I'm going to paint I think. Too much ShadeCrest...
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2014
    Keldt likes this.
  17. Keldt

    Keldt Member

    Indeed, I am, Cyber, and it's very interesting to learn.

    Vanilla+ sounds fine and very server-ish to me

    Tnt- I don't know which is the better choice. It seems like rollbacks should be fine for small occurrences and such, and we shouldn't have to deal with more widespread tnt problems, I think. Still guessing a bit here based on what I read on the Prism bukkit page thing.

    We're going to want to collaborate on a spawn build, so everyone should be allowed to build anywhere.

    I think votepoints for chest locking could be a nice incentive. It's currently the only thing that planned to be "bought" on the server, and I don't think we should set up any sort of currency system elsewhere, so the idea of rewarding voters with items doesn't sound good to me.

    Glad I could give you more of an excuse to amp up survival :p

    Thank you for all of you time and effort, Cyber, I appreciate it a lot.
  18. CyberVic

    CyberVic Well-Known Member VIP

    Ummm unless we disable TnT, when the server has no white list, I garuntee you will have 2-3 new players a day joining for the explicit purpose of blowing up bases and they don't care that they will be immediately banned. It's how they have fun. So if you're ok with bases being blown up and the survival staff having to answer 2-3 mod reqs a day doing prism rollbacks. Sure it won't be a problem! (*sarcasm*)

    So you're totally ok with some newbie joining and building a dirt house right in the middle of your pretty collaborative spawn?

    So LWC you can lock chests with 7 votepoints or 4 diamonds. You ok with that?
    That means that essentially a player can get 1 free locked chest a day.
  19. CyberVic

    CyberVic Well-Known Member VIP

    Breaking off the to-do list as a seperate thread
  20. Keldt

    Keldt Member

    Meant to ask about a whitelist in my last post, and didn't remember until much later. Of course we'd have idiots joining if we don't have a whitelist. My thoughts above were under the assumption that we would have one, with the plan to ask whether that was happening or not afterward.

    I realize a good whitelist would be quite a chore to keep up with and would require a lot of constant care, so I understand not doing one, and in that case it makes absolute logical sense to disable tnt.

    Here's what happened last time with this.. We had the same plan of collaborating on a spawn base thing for the newbies to get geared up in before they left to build something on their own. In order to make this work, any new members who joined were told to build a few hundred blocks away from spawn, and were warned that anything too close to spawn would be demolished for the collab build.
    We didn't have anyone ignore these warnings, and everyone built away from spawn. Anyone who managed to get a small base built close to spawn before we were able to tell them was not very invested in their base by the time we were able to get the message to them and they moved. This happened once or twice.

    I understand that if we're not going to have a whitelist, we can't always trust that people will listen to us. If you think it would be better to have a protected spawn, I guess that's fine. If there's a way to allow certain people, including those who aren't admins, to be able to build at spawn, thus letting us still do a collaborative build there but also allowing for some protection from the new people, that'd be even better.

    Sounds good.